00:00:09 Hi everyone I m Kadambari Sahu. I'm the head of design at Value Labs. Design Inspire is

00:00:14 the web series of passionate innovative and young inspiring designers. The web series

00:00:20 dive into their passion inspiration and what makes them go. It's an effort to understand

00:00:25 how they are navigating their career path and how they are investing their creative

00:00:30 energies. We believe hearing their bold moves and inspiring stories that will ignite interest

00:00:34 and inspired the next generation of bonding designers across the globe. So let's go forward.

00:00:40 Our today's guest is Gaurav Patekar. Gaurav is designer and maker, working at the intersection

00:00:46 of art, design and technology. Is currently working as a research assistant at the MIT

00:00:51 Media Lab. There is a part of future sketches and fluid interfaces research groups. He had

00:00:57 studied design and engineering prior to coming to MIT. His current work focuses on creating

00:01:02 experiences and object based on climate data in order to bring the issues of climate change

00:01:07 to people's attention. Some of those interests are data visualization, kinetic sculpture,

00:01:13 interaction design, digital fabrication and craft practices. He believes that bringing

00:01:18 together disparate approaches and skills can lead to normal and unusual outcomes. So welcome

00:01:24 to the show Gaurav how are you doing today?

00:01:27 I'm good. How are you?

00:01:29 So Gaurav the format of the show is that the first we go with your presentation where you

00:01:36 would share with us. Anything that inspires you motivates you or your journey for that

00:01:40 factor. And the second part of the show would be that I'll be asking you questions. So all

00:01:45 of these questions are actually compiled by the designers at user experience group at

00:01:50 Valuelabs and we'll go forward from here to that then. So, over to you excited to see

00:01:57 your presentation.

00:01:58 I'll start with my journey, like how I came to where I am. And yeah so I think I'll start

00:02:10 with the engineering. Like, I went into mechanical engineering at an undergraduate level because

00:02:16 I was really interested in making things and that's something I had been doing since childhood

00:02:21 and based on at that time mechanical engineering was the best fit and the four years of engineering

00:02:29 were pretty interesting. But they were also like there were a lot of things that I realized

00:02:36 that I did not know before were engineering kind of fell short one of those things, was

00:02:42 that. I felt that engineering is not like the engineering the way it was taught at that

00:02:48 time and the place I went to was not really about making thing that's more about like

00:02:56 handling things and I did not really want to do that and. so during like the end of

00:03:02 my engineering. Fortunately, I came across this place called an NID and they seem to

00:03:07 have the single product design and new media design and that seemed to make a lot of sense.

00:03:13 So after like a year of working somewhere and trying to get into NID I was in, I got

00:03:22 into a new media design in 2012 and So the two years of an NID were really interesting

00:03:30 and I would not really go into that because I believe a lot of us know what that is, by

00:03:36 but but what I want to talk about is the two years after that. So, so I think like the

00:03:44 two years of an NID were like the most Common condensed amount of learning. I have had in

00:03:51 my life, like it was just like a lot of things back to back and I think I learned a lot and

00:03:57 I met a lot of people who I wouldn't otherwise and but, but one of the issues that I had

00:04:05 with an NID was that Like it was it was a bit too fast for my liking. And like I'm a

00:04:13 pretty slow person so I think I took like the two years after an NID to just like uncompressed

00:04:18 and I just the two years and also like when I came out of NID. I did not really know what

00:04:26 is a wireframe like it's not really something I did at NID and that's a good thing. Like,

00:04:32 I didn't really want to do that, at the end of time. But yeah, so the point I'm trying

00:04:40 to stress is that while I learned a lot. At NID. There were a lot of skills that I did

00:04:48 not have. And so I think that do is after that were really good time to kind of gather

00:04:55 all these skills and become a designer. So when I think about my design education. I

00:05:01 think of it as these four years and not two years and so these two years were really interesting

00:05:08 like I was pretty clueless about like what is design. And what do people do and what

00:05:14 do I want to do. And I kind of ended up doing a lot of things like I did freelance visual

00:05:20 design for the United Nations, and I did some interaction design projects. I also did some

00:05:26 kind of the sculpture that I exhibited in Maker Faire and like some other places. And

00:05:33 so I think that has like a good like a good learning period where I go to try a lot of

00:05:42 things. And yeah, so at the end of those two years I was kind of comfortable calling myself

00:05:50 a designer. And at that point of time, I was already working as an interaction designer

00:05:57 in the company and things are going pretty well, but I had like a sense of Like something

00:06:05 is lacking for me like I wanted to do something, but I was not able to do it and I always had

00:06:12 a vision of working as a new media designer, whatever that may mean and so I am like I

00:06:22 wanted to work on making interactive installations are like I thought that my like day to day

00:06:30 life would involve like using our dinners and processing or things beyond that and I

00:06:37 was not really able to actually like turn that into reality and that point of time.

00:06:42 So, so I was getting a little demotivated during that period, but so one of the really

00:06:49 good things that happened during that period was that I had somehow, like I had really

00:06:56 good people around me that I found really meaningful relationships with and I think

00:07:04 that was like a place like that was one of the most important things that happened during

00:07:09 that point of time. So Kadambari being like one of those people and like a couple of other

00:07:15 people.And so I think it's really important to have a few people around you that you really

00:07:24 relate with and that understand you and your interest in what you're trying to do and what

00:07:29 are your struggles. So that was a fortunate thing that happened during that point of time

00:07:34 and so many of those friendships were also collaborative partnerships, where I ended

00:07:41 up working on really interesting projects that I'm still very proud of and these were

00:07:48 like pretty big projects that were a lot of fun and a lot of headache, at times, and but

00:07:56 yeah, it's so that was again like a very good period of time, like, looking back and yeah,

00:08:04 so one of the like domain thing that I had in the, like, if I could, like, say one thing

00:08:10 for those two years is the meaningful relationships that I found that I still value. And I think

00:08:17 I will always value those relationships. And yeah. And during all this time so

00:08:25 So media lab has like always been something that I will looking at and it's it always

00:08:32 was something that I wanted to be part of. And I had applied a couple of times before

00:08:40 I got in and around like 2019 I applied to this group called poetic justice and It was,

00:08:49 it was more like I applied and I was not really like, I didn't really know if like that's

00:08:58 like a realistic possibility or is it just like a waste of $60 once again. But, but,

00:09:05 yeah. So, somehow it worked out and I I do want to like emphasize on the role of

00:09:14 chance in that in that selection, because Media Lab gets a lot of applications for like

00:09:22 two seats. Yeah, like 300 people applying and it's not always about like how good you

00:09:27 are, or how Sometimes it just like there is a good role

00:09:33 of chance that that exists there and yeah so side like I consider myself very fortunate

00:09:43 that it kind of worked out. And I was being able to go to MIT Media Lab and Yeah, so that's

00:09:51 where I am right now and I'll be finishing next year and had the second is a very again

00:09:59 like similar to an NID, it's like two years of very condensed thing where there are like

00:10:05 a lot of things flying around, and I'm still trying to make sense of what is going on.

00:10:10 And that, but then I have faith that it really makes sense. Like later. Like, it's not just

00:10:16 previous probably to take me three, four or five years to kind of really understand what

00:10:23 is happening. And yeah, so after like 2021 I didn't really know what happens or yeah

00:10:30 so that's that's the current timeline. And yes, I think. So it's I even though, like

00:10:46 this is like a linear timeline. Like, I don't feel it's linear, like it a lot of going back

00:10:53 and forth. And a lot of times of confusion that I was pretty clueless. And then it made

00:10:58 sense. And then I was again clueless. And I'm still a clueless about a lot of things.

00:11:02 And one day, it makes sense and it doesn't. The next day, so site. So this is like a like

00:11:08 there are a lot of struggles there and I have picked up a lot of small thing that have somehow

00:11:14 worked out for me and I thought I would like to share those things for people who are kind

00:11:20 of starting out in the field. So yes, I go to that three four thing that I would suggest.

00:11:33 And so I want to use the word submission, rather than like Advice or guidelines, because

00:11:39 that's not really what I can do. Like these are just something that have worked and I

00:11:46 would suggest doing those. But again, like, it, it, it's different for everyone. And it

00:11:53 might like maybe it might not work for you. Maybe it will Yeah so. So I want to start

00:12:03 with this. It's like a weird statement, but I like I've been hearing it in some of my

00:12:09 conversations with people at the lab and so there are like two sides of this statement

00:12:17 and it's important to acknowledge that making art is hard and it applies to any creative

00:12:24 endeavor. Like if you're starting your own project if you're starting your company or

00:12:29 if you're trying to do something that they have not done before and you're not really

00:12:35 sure. So, so that is a hard process and and it's hard to like one is on starting anything

00:12:43 new or creating anything new is like, firstly It takes a certain amount of courage and certain

00:12:57 amount of For example, like I have like a lot of anxiety

00:13:03 about making new things and it's It's sometimes difficult to like push to that

00:13:09 and be able to make something and put it out into the world and yeah, so that's often something

00:13:16 that gets lost in the the narrative or the documentation. But yeah, so for people who

00:13:25 are starting out, I just want to say that it is hard to do these things and its okay.

00:13:30 Like, it's not a bad thing in this, how it is. And of course, it's like 2020 so of course

00:13:38 is going to be hard. It's like we all know how things are so, so yeah, so going after

00:13:47 this. Yeah, I'll just go to the first. So I'm looking at like a wheel making sharing

00:14:00 and learning to go there because of like a cyclical thing and

00:14:06 So, so this is again something I did not learn at an NID, because NID has a structure like

00:14:17 any educational institute has a structure where you are making things because you have

00:14:24 to and because we want to because you have the environment, but then after like when

00:14:30 you're on your own. When you're in the industry or when you are paying rent and taking care

00:14:35 of electricity bills. It's difficult to have that mindset sometimes and It's very important

00:14:43 to have a habit of producing something and and it can be like It can be a lot of like

00:14:57 it can be a lot of things like it doesn't have to be. Like the work you're doing right

00:15:02 now. It could be also a side project that you're starting out just a skill that you

00:15:07 want to learn, but it's important to have a habit or develop like some sort of mechanism.

00:15:13 So those could be that you sketch for like five minutes of every day and how you have

00:15:20 like weekly or monthly challenges where you try to do something for 30 and Yes like a

00:15:28 couple of things that I have been doing so. So, this I started like during I guess the

00:15:33 beginning of pandemic, where I was, I found myself like being at home and with like a

00:15:41 lot of time and I wanted to do something and I have been working with Zach, who is one

00:15:50 of my advisors who is also the creator of open frameworks and he is like the master

00:15:57 of daily creation, like he started, I think in 2006 when he started like hosting one sketch,

00:16:06 everyday. And now we like, it's like his timeline is filled with these things that he creates

00:16:12 and you can really see like how he has progress like he so he has kind of perfected this art

00:16:24 of making things every day and it's and it's it's really beautiful to see like if like

00:16:32 what you will make in 2016 and how like those really simple ideas have calculated into his

00:16:39 work and now they are really important part of what he does. And similarly, if you look

00:16:45 at, like what he's doing right now like sound. Those things are part of his word. What's

00:16:51 on those things are just iterations and I'm sure like those will work it into some the

00:16:57 future work and that's very beautiful because one of the powers of creating like this in

00:17:07 a systematic way is that you can just play with things and you're not really trying to

00:17:11 filter out things or you're not really trying to cure it. You're just like you're just starting

00:17:17 with you want to make something to the end that's as long as you do that, that's good

00:17:21 enough. So so I am still practicing this. I'm not

00:17:27 really able to do this every day right now but but yeah it's it's good to have some sort

00:17:34 of like a daily or weekly and yes, I want to go to the next point related to that. So

00:17:43 yeah, so the summer. So this is like my first year in United States, and I suggest like

00:17:50 during quarantine I started taking a lot of walks, because there's not much to do and

00:17:58 And it's the area that I live in right now in Massachusetts. It's very beautiful outside

00:18:04 and all the seasons that I'm experiencing are the first time I'm experiencing these

00:18:09 in this weather. So it's really nice to see how the summer starts or how the spring starts

00:18:16 or what fall is like and so during my walks over like last few months, I've been coming

00:18:24 out of these like leaves and the seeds, which I don't really see in India and and they they

00:18:34 all have their the way they move when there is wind or the way they fall is very beautiful

00:18:41 than unique in a way that that have not seen before and. And so during all these walks.

00:18:48 I was looking at these things and I wanted to do something with them. But I didn't really

00:18:52 know what to do. And during the time I happen to acquire a 3D printer and I thought it might

00:18:59 be interesting to just try to like put those two together and try to like replicate that

00:19:05 movement in some way and I started this without any agenda, like I didn't really want it to

00:19:11 be like a series or anything. But I thought it would be good to have like a weekly thing

00:19:15 so I put it on myself to like make one of these a week. And yes so I think having doing

00:19:26 that for like the last couple of months and like seven of these little things which don't

00:19:36 make any sense. But like they're kind of whimsical they are not all of them. Like I don't even

00:19:45 like all of them, which is nice because if I was consciously like trying to create this

00:19:52 I would reject like lot of these ideas on their own, and I would not end up making it

00:19:57 but through the process of making it like it makes sense. After making some of the things

00:20:02 it makes sense. During making some of these things. And that's again, a very beautiful

00:20:09 thing that happens when you have these routines of daily or weekly making yeah. So, so now

00:20:21 the second thing after making is to. So this is a quote by Austin Kleon show you what he

00:20:29 also has a really good book about it. And so I I look at showing your work in in context

00:20:38 of people like us who are in the In Design field or in like who are makers and So it's

00:20:49 really important to be I think I mean like getting it has really benefited me to do this

00:21:00 thing where you try to like your let's try to apply for some competitions are some conferences

00:21:08 are some open calls or just let go to an event that is happening around you go to the Maker

00:21:15 Faire and just try to show what you're doing. And I think nowadays it's really good to like

00:21:26 have things like Instagram, but you have a very good community of people who are doing

00:21:32 very similar things and you can connect with people across the world. If you are doing

00:21:37 that say processing our country also really good online communities that are extremely

00:21:42 encouraging and helpful when you're doing something with that and so I think sharing

00:21:52 is like making and sharing is like a very important thing that has helped me a lot.

00:21:59 And I'm yeah and yeah. So the third thing is to kind of find your tribe. So this is

00:22:10 again a very Important thing that that have learned over the last few years.

00:22:19 which is related to the sharing part where it's not It's sometimes it's scary to like

00:22:25 share what you're making because it can also go in a bad direction because It's, it's kind

00:22:33 of tricky like I fortunately how had people around me who have kind of Understood what

00:22:43 I was trying to do and helped me in that way. And now I'm like now at MIT Media Lab. There

00:22:50 are really good people who really take the time to, like I said, with my advisors, like

00:22:56 every week and they take time out to kind of understand what I'm trying to make and

00:23:03 then help me out with that. And that's a really big privilege or two how like friends who

00:23:09 you can talk to and who understand what you're trying to share, is it is a great privilege

00:23:18 and it's, it, it doesn't happen automatically. But it requires some effort to kind of find

00:23:26 the people who you want to share it. And it's it's worthwhile taking that effort to find

00:23:34 who, who are these people do you, for example, if you look at conferences, maybe you might

00:23:43 go to a UX conference and you might feel that. Okay, so you really relate with what is happening

00:23:48 here. You might go to Maker Faire and then you will feel that. Okay, I really understand

00:23:54 these people and and that's important to take the time out to kind of see where you want

00:24:00 to be. And Yeah, so this is so this so this circle of making sharing and learning has

00:24:13 worked really well for me and it's It's something that I'm constantly trying to practice and

00:24:19 I do believe that if I can keep doing that. It's like it. Everything else can kind of

00:24:27 fall in place. And yeah, so as a I mean I would really like to know this, like maybe

00:24:36 five years back when I was when I had a lot of doubts about should I like why am I making

00:24:42 Kinetic sculpture, should I be doing this at my time. Does it make sense? It would have

00:24:47 really helped to like know at the time that just like doing this as we go into make sense

00:24:53 and somehow like fit together later on. So that's something I would like to leave you

00:24:59 with that somehow makes sense like this, try to like, yeah, just like make whatever you're

00:25:08 making, even if it's like water colors are processing or coding or pottery. It's fine.

00:25:18 It's good. And Yeah, so the last thing I have kind of learned is, is, in a way, a very positive

00:25:27 thing, but it can also be very scary is that there are no rules and then of course there

00:25:33 are rules, but there are no absolute truth so so this is something I learned by like

00:25:41 going from engineering to design and design to Art and Art technology and all this mixing

00:25:47 of things like I come across a lot of people who have very diverse backgrounds and and

00:25:55 I think like in design field like we learn a lot of these things which we think of as

00:26:03 rules and often they are like frameworks or guidance, which are very valid, but they are

00:26:09 not valid in all cases like they're always cases where you can break the rules or you

00:26:15 can disregard that will send and it's good to I find it helpful to kind of know that

00:26:24 in the background that these are kind of structure that someone have built up and there are always

00:26:31 flaws in those and especially when you're trying to mix multiple disciplines, which

00:26:36 interaction design is mixing up like a lot of different disciplines. It's difficult,

00:26:41 it's important to be able to have that skeptical mindset and to be able to see where the rules

00:26:50 can be broken. But it's also yeah it's also a negative part of like this statement would

00:27:02 be that it's very scary to know that there are no rules, because then how do you function.

00:27:08 So part of the journey is also to find your own rules like you how to create your own

00:27:14 framework and that's something I'm still struggling with and learning from like other people like

00:27:22 what are their books and it's yes I think it's that kind of my

00:27:27 task right now to kind of make my own framework of something.

00:27:33 Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts today. It's really really profound and there's

00:27:40 a lot of wisdom involved in it. And I really think that a lot of people have gone through

00:27:45 these things where they did not know how to start. First of all, even coming to design

00:27:49 is something that people generally don't know That, you know, for reasons like that field

00:27:55 exist and that has been like one of the recurring themes that I've asked people that you know

00:28:00 how did they come across design and how did it start for you. So, and those have been

00:28:06 these these answers, where they did not know it was accident. It was chance and things

00:28:11 like that. So yeah, I mean, in a way, it all makes sense. What you've just spoken to us.

00:28:17 And now let's go forward with some of the questions that people have, you don't compile

00:28:22 for you. And the first question that I'll ask because the same one. And that is, when

00:28:26 and how did you think of becoming a designer and how did it start for you.

00:28:31 Yeah. I said, like during so I went into mechanical engineering because I was already like into

00:28:42 robotics and making things, whether it be like craft or and then and then I like I thought

00:28:49 at that point of time that mechanical engineers meeting, then, That made sense and and during

00:28:55 mechanical engineering, I did end up making things but they will not really part of my

00:29:01 academic education. They were mostly thing that I was taking up on my own. And I think

00:29:07 it's different in a place like MIT where I see a lot of undergrads, making things that

00:29:13 go into space and lead deep ocean. So, but yes I that's kind of what I wanted. At that

00:29:22 point of time and and so I was do towards the end of my engineering. I was kind of confused

00:29:30 and looking at, like, what to do now. And I think almost by chance. I came across this

00:29:40 video of a person from MIT Media Lab.It's, it's this device called six and which was

00:29:47 kind of going viral. At that point of time, and everyone was watching it and I was like,

00:29:52 What is this, like, how do you do this thing like I like what is are you an engineer. Are

00:29:59 you like an artist or but what I you and so I kind of looked up this person and I saw

00:30:04 that they went to this place called IDC which is like in Mumbai, where I was at that point

00:30:09 of time. And but I didn't know like this existed. And then I saw that there was a single product

00:30:14 design. And I was like, what is that I Before that, like I was, I was pretty ignorant. Like,

00:30:19 I came from a small town and I went to engineering and so so yeah, I didn't really know there

00:30:27 was this whole field of design that existed and so somehow like watching that video and

00:30:32 looking up at this person and then going into the rabbit hole of hyperlinks. I realized

00:30:40 that there's this place called IDC in Mumbai, which has things called product design and

00:30:47 interaction design. And I also came across this place called an NID. And I was like,

00:30:52 I didn't really know like this seemed a little sketchy like I didn't really know anyone goes

00:30:57 there. I've never heard of this place. But, but, yeah, I was only able to find like two

00:31:03 places in India at that point of time, who offered design. So I ended up applying to

00:31:09 both And so this was like one like a fortunate accident that I came across these things and

00:31:20 other ones that I during that time, I ended up attending a workshop by again, MIT Media

00:31:27 Lab India initiative where I met a person from an NID nickel Doshi, you go, that's my

00:31:37 plan.And so he almost like convinced me to not go to product design. He were like what

00:31:43 you're saying. Like if you're like, You want to make things and you want to make tech devices

00:31:47 and things, then you have to go to New Media design like that's what they do. And so, like,

00:31:52 Okay that makes sense. So, so yes and applying to new media design and and yeah, so that's

00:32:01 how I came to an NID and I was yes, I was pretty clueless even like after coming to

00:32:06 an NID as to, like, what is new media design and I still can t define like I don't know

00:32:13 anyone knows how to describe it. But yeah, it does. It does. Like a series of accidents

00:32:21 that kind of led to that and yea it's a difficult to like this. I don't know how things are

00:32:29 now. But yeah, there is not a lot of Information about like design schools and also because

00:32:35 of the fact that there are so few design schools in India and it's such a new field.

00:32:43 So with all the cluelessness that you have. Now, how do you define your practice?

00:32:50 So I always find like defining things a bit difficult because.Yeah, I mean I I don't know

00:33:00 if I can like define it, but I can maybe describe it, so and it's again like a reaction to where

00:33:08 I am. So, for example, like when I went to an NID I felt like an engineer, because I

00:33:16 like computer design like I was more on the engineering side. And then when I come to

00:33:22 MIT, which is, which has like a lot of people who are into like hardcore science and engineering.

00:33:27 Then I feel more like a designer and and but I wouldn't like I'm still uncomfortable calling

00:33:34 myself like an engineer or a designer. So because it's like I don't think I like exactly

00:33:42 fit into any of these categories but but yes right now my I if I describe like my practice.

00:33:50 I'm just trying to make things like that's making things is something that has been consistent

00:33:55 and then some of those things can be thought of as design some of those things can be thought

00:34:01 of as engineering sound those things, hopefully will be thought of as art. And that's, that's

00:34:07 nice. One thing I want to keep making things and

00:34:14 right now I think they will mostly fall within the domain of Art and Design, but will involve

00:34:22 a lot of technology.

00:34:24 So would you call yourself in that case Maker?

00:34:29 Yeah

00:34:30 So you you are so then you confirm with the maker culture, right, like where you make

00:34:35 things and show things. And is this part of that culture as well which is picking up,

00:34:41 it really

00:34:43 Yeah so so maker culture is again like a pretty broad field so I mean, I definitely like feel

00:34:56 part of it. Yeah I consider making like the maker culture, not as the early the current

00:35:14 trend that you see, which is often like around like Hackathon certainly the deal maker spaces

00:35:23 like it's I mean, like we have a lot of graph practices that we have been doing. And some

00:35:29 of those we learn as children, and that is also part of maker culture, not in like the

00:35:36 meaning of the new world, but in like a broader sense. And if you look at like I seen the

00:35:43 West, like in schools, some other people have learned how to do woodworking. And that's

00:35:48 really great. Like I never learned that, and that is also maker culture. And if you're

00:35:54 into embroidery or stitching things or if you crochet at home. That's also maker culture.

00:36:01 So, so any act of making things I would consider as part of maker culture and sometimes it

00:36:09 could also be like making cakes. That's, that's also maker culture

00:36:13 That s great to hear. So you've also worked on. Like there's like repertoire things that

00:36:20 you've worked on. You've tried lot of things. And I also see that there's also this whole

00:36:25 thing that you try a lot of different stuff which is nontraditional so is that by choice

00:36:31 that trying to keep away from something which is quite traditional.

00:36:37 I mean I wouldn't say it's a conscious choice, it's more of like where the interest go and

00:36:48 and yeah, so it's it's a combination of like what I find appealing. And then what I find

00:36:53 most valuable at that point of time. So, for example, like I'm really interested in digital

00:36:59 fabrication and I use that a lot. In most of my work. Like, I can't imagine the world

00:37:07 without digital fabrication and that's and part of it and just convenience, like It's

00:37:15 easier to have like a 3D printer. Then have a full workshop that I can machine things

00:37:20 in and yeah and I think at this I mean, I think it's going to be like the default like

00:37:34 in a few years. And yes I but I also have like a lot of interest in traditional practices.

00:37:45 And yeah I mean I don't really practice them like professionally but. But it's not really

00:37:54 something that like I would not look at it as like a choice between like going towards

00:38:00 unconventional things or like new things versus traditional practices.

00:38:08 In these different mediums that you've experimented. Can you talk about some of your work in these

00:38:15 different mediums?

00:38:17 Yeah. So I think I can talk about like one of the projects called Data delivery part,

00:38:25 which I did in I think 2017 with two of my friends Deja and Shubham and the one and I

00:38:34 think I really like. It's one of my favorite projects because it kind of has a lot of interesting

00:38:43 aspects and the process of how the project came about is also interesting. So see, I

00:38:50 think I just started like a story about that. So, so before like that, but I was kind of

00:39:00 in that state of mind where I was confused and I was I was working as an interaction

00:39:06 designer, but then I will like I want to do something and it's again, going back to like

00:39:12 find your tribe find like it's difficult to like always do things on your own and again

00:39:19 by accident, like this person put this thing on Facebook or where he was like, I want to

00:39:26 do, like, I want to participate in some Event. I'm looking for collaborator and collaborators

00:39:33 and and he put luckier put that thing on Facebook pretty seriously but I kind of have jokingly

00:39:39 responded to that. And then he reached out to me. And so I think he was also at home

00:39:46 feeling similar things that he wanted to do something and he wanted some people to work

00:39:51 with. And I wanted the same thing. So we kind of started talking over phone. And so he was

00:39:59 in Delhi at that point of time, and I was in Hyderabad and I think we had like a lot

00:40:04 of conversations, which somehow like sometimes like when for like two hours a day and and

00:40:14 that like very slowly, because we are I think both kind of slow in anyways so and So we

00:40:24 went through like a very, very long process of like talking a lot, and going towards like

00:40:28 what we want to do, and we went to a lot of ideas and just like talk about talked about

00:40:33 random things and what makes sense and somehow settled on making a data visualization

00:40:46 and yeah so so that was how the concept came about through like three months of talking

00:40:54 on the phone and and I think though the process like we kind of made it a bit too complex

00:41:05 for like skill set. It was like it. It just I'd like a lot of different aspects. So so,

00:41:14 for example, it is Food printer. So it's like painting jalebi so there's like Jalebi batter

00:41:23 is like pouring out oh thing and there is like a frying pan with the induction stow

00:41:28 and like a 3D printer on top of trying hard frying pan and there were like some new metrics

00:41:36 involved. And yes, it was like it was pretty messy for for a project to be done remotely

00:41:44 because we're both in different cities. So, so that is like a lot of fun to like play

00:41:51 around with all these things and to put all these things together. And again, that's something

00:41:58 I really like and value to be able to put like a part of cooking with digital fabrication

00:42:08 thing with like data visualization and some design skills. And so what you can literally

00:42:15 it by mixing all these weird thing. There's something that in a way, is pretty unique

00:42:23 and something that is that maybe only that sort of people can create and that's, that's,

00:42:32 again, very beautiful for me to be able to have that.

00:42:35 How did you like take this part of creating Jalebi first of all how did you arrive at,

00:42:44 you know, starting with Jalebi and second thing is Data visualization. Right. So how

00:42:50 did you think about this algorithm or like you know how this Jalebi would be transformed.

00:42:54 When you know you are fixing the data and part of it.

00:43:03 Yeah, So the project was like we started it as something that we wanted to exhibit in

00:43:09 this conference that was happening in India called interact 17 which is a, it's a conference

00:43:15 pretty famous and it was happening in India for the first time and I think they had I

00:43:23 forgot the theme, but I think it was about like the traditions of India or culture of

00:43:28 India. And so we were brainstorming about like around that a lot like what it means

00:43:36 for an extra confidence to happen in India and what part of Indian culture. Do we want

00:43:43 to do we want to highlight within that and what me and Karan we're pretty Interested

00:43:54 in data visualization as a field like I think he has worked a little in that he had worked

00:44:00 in between that in the past and so, and so it was kind of part of it like reverse engineering

00:44:10 like trying to see, like, what the context of like it's an it's a conference. It's a

00:44:18 design thing. It's a word culture of India. So, and then what are our interests. So our

00:44:23 interest well data visualization and some other things and and so what could be what

00:44:28 could we do around that so also one of the things. One of the other things that kind

00:44:36 of triggered the data visualization part was that these conferences, get a lot of people

00:44:41 from different disciplines and how do we kind of show the diversity in the people. So, so

00:44:49 what if we could make a data visualization of the people who are coming to the conferences.

00:44:56 Because like you always go to these events and there are so many people who come from

00:45:02 different fields. And it's kind of difficult to understand, like, what is happening. So,

00:45:08 so we thought of, like, making a data visualization for a person. So let's say you as a conference

00:45:13 attendee what, what is your visualization and and the Jalebi part more of like a whimsical

00:45:22 thing that we just said in like one of those calls like what if you make a Jalebi like

00:45:27 that's like a strange thing to do. We also had a data atta concept, which we rejected,

00:45:35 but it was like one of the almost like at the same level as be data Jalebi to make atta

00:45:45 with data. So, so, yeah, it does so. So the Jalebi part came as like a whimsical idea

00:45:51 that then made a lot of sense because it touched upon a lot of aspects of HCI community and

00:45:59 It just made sense at the time.

00:46:03 So my next question is more towards to do with your the like where you are, which is

00:46:11 introvert and I've seen that being introvert also means not being very vocal. So how do

00:46:17 you make sure that you don't hurt?

00:46:21 So, so I don't really make sure like every time. Like its but I think what I have

00:46:31 Ended up doing is to like choose where I am. So, for example, like I can go to certain

00:46:37 places like my voice is not valued and or not good, but fortunately I have come across

00:46:44 like I have ended up at places which do value my voice and or like places that have structures

00:46:51 that make sure that, like, just because you're an introvert. Your voice is not like that

00:46:58 doesn't happen. So I think MIT media lab has done that pretty well where I don't feel like

00:47:05 it's like being an introvert is a disadvantage in any way. And that's not really a credit

00:47:12 to me, but to the structure of the institute and all have done is like I have managed to

00:47:20 like be here and I think the same with other community that I've been part of, like, the

00:47:28 friends I have the NID community where an NID is not really a community that like Shawn,

00:47:35 so he introvert voices. And Yeah, and I think like sometimes I mean, I think there are ways

00:47:48 of like even if you're an introvert like making your voice heard. Is not that difficult to

00:47:52 just try to find what works for you, like,Like to be heard. Like sometimes speaking less

00:47:58 is good. Like, it's not really like, you know, always have to like speak more to be heard

00:48:05 more it's actually better to speak less sometimes. And and yeah I think now, like everything

00:48:11 is virtual then they can zoom calls, it's a lot easier to like speak of them.In a group,

00:48:17 full of like 20 people.

00:48:19 And some of your advice to people who are introverts are also not very, very conducive

00:48:27 for, you know, networking and all how you've talked about sharing. But then how do you

00:48:32 go about making those you know connections. Any advice for those people.

00:48:39 So, so I'm not really good at networking. It's like I'm pretty bad. But what helps is

00:48:50 that so I'm not really good at like going to an event. And just like network with people

00:48:55 without anything but but it's but I'm really comfortable talking about what I do and like

00:49:03 sharing. Let's say there is a project and I like literally as a political leader delivered

00:49:08 that I'm happy to like, share with people and talk about it and then among the people

00:49:13 I talked to, like, some of them will find that interesting. And that will be take a

00:49:18 point of connect and so I find that to be the easier route to connect rather than through

00:49:24 words where I can For example, like I often post things on Instagram

00:49:30 that don't really have a caption, but then but in that like sometimes people reach out

00:49:37 to me and that's nice because when like they're reaching out to me because of the work, and

00:49:43 that's that's that's desirable for me. Similarly, like I would find it pretty intimidating to

00:49:51 go to a networking event but but it's less intimidating to I mean, it is still intimidating,

00:49:59 but it is easier to like give like a presentation or talk at that event. And then people will

00:50:05 reach out to you if they find your work. Interesting. And so I kind of find that like Drake of connecting

00:50:13 or work and I had gone to one of these talks like almost 10 years back where I think it

00:50:23 was one of the professors from MIT, he was so different suggesting this that they don't

00:50:31 I mean I don't completely stand by the solution, but his suggestion was that like, don't do

00:50:37 small talk like this and start with what you're passionate about and I think that works sometimes

00:50:43 but I I don't click advice, it but I mean, it's something you could try out is.

00:50:52 So I take it that some of the things is that sharing your work has really helped you connect

00:50:58 with people who are interested in work and you know like minded that as you talked about

00:51:02 the tribe and you know likeminded people with whom you feel comfortable coming to work right

00:51:09 now. So how was it working in an MIT media lab right now? How you working and what are

00:51:17 you working on?

00:51:20 Yeah. So, I think I'm working on like a couple of different things again. So, so one of the

00:51:29 things that I'm focusing on is a data visualization, because I think that's something that I really

00:51:35 enjoy and I, there is this artist called Georgia loopy, who has this idea of data humanism,

00:51:42 rather than. And so I think it could look like a look up her data humanism framework.

00:51:50 It's almost like a manifesto when she her approach of looking at data is very beautiful

00:51:55 like she's like when you think of data or data visualization. We often think of like

00:52:02 big data. And this network diagrams utterly connecting hundred points 200 different points

00:52:07 and her way of looking at data visualization is very like at your level or at how you're

00:52:14 feeling or how you're thinking, and it's a very intimate way of looking at data visualization.

00:52:20 And so that's kind of something I feel is very valuable and very needed right now. And

00:52:29 so, so that's why I think I chose to work with data visualization. And so right now

00:52:34 I'm focusing on two different things. One is to work with data that you collect from

00:52:41 the human body. So one of the groups that I'm part of a media lab is fluid interfaces,

00:52:48 where a lot of the work is about data from biosensors, it might be like EG or electrical

00:52:56 activity and I'm trying to look at how to visualize the data in a way that is more human,

00:53:05 and less of analytics and more more of intimate data. That you can understand

00:53:18 at a personal level. So, that is that is one thing I'm trying that I'm interested in. And

00:53:25 another thing is for my thesis. I'm looking at climate data because I mean climate crisis

00:53:33 like I didn't really talk about global warming and climate crisis, it's it is It's not a

00:53:40 matter of like happening or not. It's like, how bad is it and what can we do about it.

00:53:45 And so, so there is again there is like a lot of data already in the scientific literature,

00:53:52 but it's difficult to understand it and it's difficult to contextualize it and it's and

00:53:59 even after understanding and contextualizing it's It's difficult to use that in our lives

00:54:09 and some of it is also very dystopian, it's kind of like you often feel helpless looking

00:54:16 at like those figures and so I am looking at how the process of data visualization can

00:54:24 be used to take that complex and messy data and try to make meaning out of the data that

00:54:32 that at an individual level, you can consume. So I'm looking at data sculptures are no interactively

00:54:41 to experiences that will allow you to experience climate data in a In an interesting way.

00:54:50 Almost these climate data sculptures, or you know visualization that I've seen like the

00:54:54 the first one that comes to your mind is a polar bear. Right. And disconnect that I see,

00:55:00 so so have you found like anything that you find it intimately connected or what are your

00:55:06 strategies in terms of, you know, making sure that it is it's not scary. Its not dystopian

00:55:11 as you talked about. So what are your thoughts on that?

00:55:15 Yeah, so so having like a reading about these approaches and so there are, I think two things.

00:55:25 One is like the polar bear. It's like one piece of information, which is that like things

00:55:31 or bad things are going to get banned and then on the other extreme, we have like a

00:55:37 600 page IPCC report talking about what is going to happen and like 1500 different scenarios

00:55:44 and so I think if like if I get to know that like things are going to go bad, or like if

00:55:52 everything is going to go underwater like I didn't really know what to do with that.

00:55:58 And if you give me the report I won't know what to do with that. So, so where is like

00:56:02 a good point in the middle where the message is not just that everything is going to go

00:56:09 bad, but like something that I can work with something that I can understand and comprehend

00:56:13 them possibly like share with others. So, so there is like a spark that I had to navigate

00:56:20 with It's it makes sense. So, that is, I think, one aspect of yes and that is another value

00:56:29 of data visualization where it ideally tries to find that place the other answer to your

00:56:39 question is about like the dystopian messaging. So, say, a lot of the dialogue was about how

00:56:47 everything is going to like everything to melt and so, and that was like the messaging

00:56:55 for the last 10 years and now some the research is saying that that's not really working because

00:57:00 if you give that to people, they just feel helpless and that doesn't result in like a

00:57:06 good outcome like like earlier, the strategy was to like use fear to kind of like get people

00:57:12 to change their behavior. But that's not working out so there is another strategy that some

00:57:21 research is suggesting of trying to highlight like good stories of restoration and how things

00:57:28 are working in that will give us more for like there is a lot of climate despair. And

00:57:34 if you look at like the wildfires in California right now it's and a lot of young people are

00:57:42 choosing to not have kids because they think it's not like a good idea to bring a child.

00:57:48 And so there is setting, like maybe 10 20 years back. It was like people are not believe

00:57:54 in climate change. Now we are at a place where we believe in it, but not enough hopeful place

00:57:59 so one strategy could be to bring back hope and like show how we could, like, make some

00:58:11 changes. So I'm still very new to this and I'm still evaluating different things and

00:58:16 trying to find my approach which which I don't know like not like what exactly it will be.

00:58:26 We will wait for that. And you know what you come out with them because it's the need of

00:58:31 the art. I believe climate you know, this whole issues are really something that is

00:58:35 now glaring in our eyes and we we can't really, you know, ignore it any further. But going

00:58:41 now to something which is very hopeful and that is what inspires you. I want to understand,

00:58:46 like, what is it things movies. Anything that inspires you.

00:58:52 So, so I think it has also like changes with time to time. So, for example, during quarantine.

00:59:00 I think I had like a lot of time for myself to collect for digging works and observing

00:59:08 things and I'm in a place which is very beautiful. In many ways, and so that so nature is very

00:59:17 inspiring. In that sense, because yeah, they just like a lot happening outside that that

00:59:26 is new for me and interesting for me. And it's also very comforting. In many ways, and

00:59:31 So, so I think nature is an important part right now like I have a lot of plants and

00:59:37 I really like having them and like taking care of them and growing them and So, and

00:59:44 I see that so that started like a while back, and I see like some of those ideas percolating

00:59:52 into what I'm thinking of. And I think like the whole thing of climate like working with

00:59:57 climate data came from that interesting nature. So that's one big thing that inspires me others

01:00:08 I think one of the things like looking at like not looking at really coming across other

01:00:15 people were like, I'm surrounded by a lot of people who are always working with things

01:00:22 that I, I am not really going to be working with. But it's very interesting to see people

01:00:28 working at AI and machine learning and communities and land art. And so that's always something

01:00:41 inspiring to see what other people are doing. And also, like if I go to Instagram. I see

01:00:46 a lot of good people putting out these things every week. And that's also like one of the

01:00:54 important inspiration.

01:00:56 You did give us like some of the pointers and you know your suggestions about how a

01:01:03 young designer, you know, can chart. The journey or you know what they, they can do that you

01:01:10 suggest, but not really recommend because it's up to them to take care of that. But

01:01:14 are there any, like, you know, some of the, you know, suggestions that you will or advice

01:01:20 or yeah I'll just keep it to suggestions that you would still give to people, young people,

01:01:26 people who are just coming out of the college, apart from the ones that you already gave

01:01:36 I mean more of like a general like a generic solution would be to like not really worry

01:01:41 too much about things. And that goes that goes back into the making thing like it. Yeah,

01:01:48 maybe I would like the iterate the making part but it's Where it's importantly, keep

01:02:00 doing something and like trying different things. A lot of them will not make sense

01:02:05 and did not work out. That's okay. But just like try something. And yeah, I think when

01:02:10 you're so I see like some people are just like out of college kind of stressing. A lot

01:02:22 of our like what to do and where the life is going and it's it's good to do that and

01:02:31 but it's also okay to like take your time and take a year or two is pretty small amount

01:02:39 of time. Like I know like when I'm out of college like six months feel like like a lot

01:02:45 of time and I think Adds like the more time progresses to smaller the years feeling so

01:02:54 so it's okay to like this do something else or not do anything take your time. Yeah, there

01:03:03 is there is time. I mean, I know, like other people talk about how there is so less time

01:03:10 and I think I mean, I'm not like old enough to say that that's not true, but I don't like

01:03:14 I think it's a very weird thing to like all this thing about like how time is running

01:03:20 out. Like, I think it's there is time. I mean,

01:03:24 Not to be like rabbit which translate the time. I think that's, that's something that

01:03:28 you would advise

01:03:29 Yeah, I mean, Yeah, especially now, like there are so many things happening. It's easy to

01:03:36 feel like you have to always be on like you have to always make sure that your time is

01:03:44 used most efficiently and there is value in that. But it's also okay if like that's not

01:03:50 really something you want to do for while learning sometime

01:03:54 So, Gaurav thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and I think it'll inspire a lot of

01:04:01 people and you know that this lot of work that you've done that speaks volume. And that

01:04:06 is how I think, you know, you'll also be able to make so much because you've always invested

01:04:12 your time and making things and lot if your work is exceptionally awesome and going to

01:04:17 these work and give the the thoughts that you shared today we would want to confer a

01:04:23 token of love and appreciation on you and that is we're confirming the title of inspiring

01:04:27 young designer. Thank you. And speaking to us. Thank you.